Whole House Fan Are They Worth It

I live in Temecula, CA just north and inland from San Diego. I gets pretty warm here in the summer, average 90+. I am buying a new home, but it does not have a whole house fan system included. The system sounds interesting, but do not have a lot of information. Some of the questions I have about the whole house fan system:
Are they worth the time and expense?
Are they quite?
How difficult would this be to add after we move in?
Can anybody recomend a reliable and cost effective brand?
Is this a project I could do myself over a weekend?
How big of a unit do I need for a 2 story 2100 sqft house?

Hello; bfreeman15
Familar with the area in which you live. Very HOT in summer months.
Would not recommend a whole house fan. Having one requires windows to be opened so outside air can enter and be blown into attic and out the louver vents gable vents, etc. (whichever applies)
Such a system draws in the hot outside air along with any dust in the air. Thus not really cooling the air, just helps to keep it in motion. also draws in dust which settles everywhere.
Will help to cool attic space some but not enough to offset the downsides of a whole house ventilation system.
What would be better in a new home is an attic ventilation fan. This system does not draw in air throught the entire house. Rather only into the attic throught the lovers and gable vents and blows the air out the fan.
Thus helping to reduce the attics air temp by circulation of the air. (Keeping the air moving) Plus, the attic will be insulated to help prevent the attic heat from passing into the ceilings and into the house.
Any attic ventilation fan can and will help lower cooling (Air Conditioning) costs even with air insulation. Does get well over 100 to 120 plus degrees in attics in your area. Attic ventilation fan will be helpful. Have one installed with an automatic on/off temp switch which will control temps.
My Two Cents

Thank you for the reply. Do all attice fans attach to the roof? Are there any alternatives that might attach to existing vents?

Check out Home depot and lowes they both have attic roof vent fans that will go on the roof and also fans that will mount on the gable vents in the home.If you even think AC you dont want a whole house fan
ED

I disagree with the previous post. I live in so california and it is indeed hot BUT the evenings tend to get cooler. I turn on my whole house fan in the evening for a bit and it pulls in the cool air from outside and cools the house. THATS WHAT ITS SUPPOSED TO DO. So go ahead an install one -- trust me it will work great!
The zhotman has spoken!

My dad has one in his north texas home and it works wonderfully in spring and fall and cooler summer days when it's not quite hot enough to turn on the AC but too warm to sleep comfortably. He opens the windows in the cool basement and turns that thing on and the breeze it creates is amazing, and wonderful. So as long as your house is designed in such a way that you can suck cool air from somewhere else, I like them. The one he has is ancient and very loud, but it will completely exchange the air in the house in about 10-15 minutes.

The fans feel ok. BUT they do pull in all that humidity in the home . So if you think you have and need AC in a day or two . It will take the poor AC the next 5 days to just try and dry out the home . So you feel cool in it

We took out the one a previous owner had installed in our Atlanta home. There was rarely a time when we wanted to pull that much outside air because of the humidity and pollen that is frequent in our climate.
We took it out because it was so darn ugly in the hallway ceiling, it was a big heat/ac loss, and it sounded like an airplane when it was running.

We have one in our home in NW Ohio. We only run it for about 15 min in the early morn and in the evening after the sun starts to go down. IT helps keep the house cool in during the morning hours and helps to cool the house down quickly for the evening and night time. Ours is located above the landing on our stair case, directly at the bottom of the stairs is the front door. During the day if it is very sunny and the attic is heating up, we can open the front door and turn the fan on low for a little while and the fan draws almost all of the air from outside up the stairs and into the attic, with out losing the coditioned air inside(except for the stair case). we have seen a drastic decrease in our cooling bills. The fan is belt driven it is a little noisy on high when in the vacinty, but on low it is barley noticeable in the house.
Also, there is a trick to finding out what windows and how much to open each in order to get the best and coolest air flow.
We have not noticed a large increase in dust, but spring pollen sometimes is a problem.

When I lived in San Diego, I had an attic fan installed. It worked beautifully, but not the way the contractor installed it; it was too noisy 'til I modified the installation.
The 30 1/3 HP 2-speed belt driven fan was installed in a gable. The motor noise could be heard throughout the house. After considerable experimentation, I was able to make it so quiet that it was totally inaudible from any place in the house on low speed, and barely audible on high speed from some places in the house.
To isolate the noise, I ended up making a wooden frame a bit larger than the fan (about 1/2 between the fan and frame on top, bottom, and sides) using 2 x 6 instead of 2 x 4, so the fan could swing in and out a bit without hitting anthing, and suspending the fan from springs. Noise also traveled through the Romex connecting the motor, so I replaced that with very flexible 4 wire cord with a weight ( considting of a 2 threaded pipe nipple with a cap on each end) in the middle of the run. I suspended the weight from a rafter using nylon cord, and used nylon cord to tie the weight to the 4 wire cord. I also found it necessary to use rubber mounts to mount the motor to the fan, even though the motor had built-in rubber mounts. Having the belt too tight also resulted in noise. The result: Total inaudability on low speed, and very quiet on high speed.
The ceiling shutter and shutter through the gable did not work well (they would not open fully on high speed, and the ceiling shutter would not open at all on low speed), so I motorized them. However, the standard shutter motor installation permitted shutter motor noise to be transmitted, so I ended up suspending the shutter motors on springs and connected the motor arms to the shutters with more springs. The result: The shutter motors were inaudible.
I also installed a 24 V thermostat, using relays and a transformer to operate the fan. The result: The fan quietly cycled as the thermostat turned it on and off. I used a manual 2-speed switch and 12 hour timer also.
I also ended up installing a 2nd ceiling shutter so that one of the bedrooms could be ventilated with the door closed.
By the time I finished with all that, the fan worked beautifully and kept the house comfortable at night; I did not have air conditioning.
Now that I have explained install a whole-house fan so that it is really quiet, others can do it without all the experimentation.

If you put in a stock attic fan, it usually doesn't do much good during peak heat because it can't pull out heat as fast as it is being produced by the sun. Towards evening, it will be of benefit to the attic. BUT, if you have adequate insulation in the attic it won't make a bit of difference to the area below. It will benefit the AC ducts.
What I have done with ours, Lakewood CA, is to put a 20 fan in the crawl space to the attic in the hall way and turn it on at night. It is quiet enough on low and will pull in cool air from whereever you have an open window. I also put a trap door so I can close it during the day.
Another idea is to put your 20 fan in a window away from the bedrooms, again installed so you can close the window during the day, and also let it exhaust the whole house during the evening.
This size fan is not as efficient or fast as your whole house fan, but it works after the evening has cooled down.
If you wanted to do an attic fan, I would suggest a Patton type size, 18 fan with 4500 -10,000 cfms and on low or medium, blowing it into the attic, it will slightly pressurize the attic and it will blow the hot air out where ever there is an opening. It will also circulate the attic air more causing it you not cook like dead air. If you suck out, it will draw from the closest and easiest opening and leave your space the fartherest from the fan the least exhausted. In testing temps, in and out, I found that blowing in will cool the attic better, by several degrees.
I believe most stock attic fans are basically 1500 cfms. I think that is too small for a single story. Yours is a 2 story with probably 1300 sqft/level. That means your attic space is smaller and the smaller fan would probably work for you. Just some ideas.
We have AC in Lakewood, but only use it 2-3 weeks during peak heat. Otherwise, that exhause fan in the den pulls a nice breeze when we sleep, and we don't hear it. Or, you could mount a bigger fan in the garage, leave that door open at night and leave the fan on high. Just some ideas. Good luck.

If you want to use a Whole House Fan - look at one with doors to keep weather out during hot or cold times. Also, you will only run the fan once weather outside is cooler than inside. In cooler areas this will allow you to not run the A/C as offten or not in all in some cases for our home.
I would look at these sites for fans and more info:
http://www.wholehousefansdirect.com/...eFansBegin.asp
and
http://www.tamtech.com/
Let me know if anybody needs more info

My wife and I are not the most handy, but we purchased a whole house fan last summer and were able to install it in an afternoon. I had to have my dad help me with the wiring though. For the wiring, the fans just plugged into a regular outlet (in the attic). But the catch was, that outlet needs to be controlled by a switch. So we had to hook up a switch in the hall to power the regular outlet in the attic (which we had to install as well)
We purchased the Quiet Giant from Quiet Cool http://www.atrendyhome.com/silent-giant-fan.html. It's very quiet and pushes 4500CFM. It's quieter than a box fan.
The vent sits right between the ceiling joists (ours just barely fit) but the fans hang from the rafters in the attic so the fans aren't rattling the joists and the noise isn't right against the vent.
It creates an awesome breeze all thruout the house, and keeps the house temp close to the outside temp. I don't think it ever brought the inside temp exactly to the outside temp, but it was usually within a couple degrees.
You only use it in the morning and late evening hours, then you turn it off and close the windows and doors to keep it cool. Hopefully, you get the house cooled down enough that as it gradually gets hotter outside, the house doesn't get too hot inside. And by the time it does get pretty hot inside, the temperature outside is starting to cool off again and you can turn the WHF back on again.
Alot of the sites have a calculator that shows how much CFM you need based on how much square footage your home is. We have a 4000 square foot home and the 4500CFM works great. I think one of the calculators I saw said we should have a 6000 CFM fan. But then I heard someone saying that those calculators don't take into account the wasted space from closets, counters, and furniture taking up that space. So we decided to try the 4500CFM figuring we can always add smaller fans later if needed. We won't be adding more though. Even if we open a window in a bedroom with the door closed, the WHF in the upstairs hallway will still pull a strong breeze thru the bedroom window and keep the bedroom cool.

The vent sits right between the ceiling joists (ours just barely fit) but the fans hang from the rafters in the attic so the fans aren't rattling the joists and the noise isn't right against the vent.
I am not quite clear on your installation- Is your WHF mounted from your roof in your attic or in the floor of the attic? Does that mean you basically have a large attic fan with a large vent to the main house?

The actual fans (there's 2) hang from the roof inside the attic (the rafters) by a couple pieces of bendable metal strappings with screw/nail holes every inch or so - they just kind of hang there in mid-air. Then you cut out a hole in the ceiling (based on a template they give you) and set the grill in it. They said the size of the grill should fit in every ceiling since the space between ceiling joists is usually 14 inches or more (ours was exactly 14 inches). Then you attach the ductwork from the 2 fans to the grill.
Since the fans hang in mid-air and aren't touching anything there's no rattling. And since they're not right next to the grill in the ceiling you don't hear much noise at all when you stand by it. It's quieter than a box fan.

I see it now- I read about your fans from your link. Just which rooms did you install the intake grills? On high you have 4500 cfms. I guess that mean 4500 for the 2 intakes(2250/grill). Interesting mounting. We had the 18Patton installed in the side gable and you could always hear some, but not a problem, noise.
BTW- can someone tell me insert a photo. I see they ask for a URL. I have mine on desktop.

Actually, the 4500CFM model only has 1 intake grill. On the back side of the grill (the side in the attic), it has a Y connection, so the ductwork from each of fans connects to the Y. We have a 2 story house with the bedrooms upstairs. The grill is in the middle of the hall upstairs. If you open a window downstairs, you can stand at the top of the stairs and really feel the wind coming up. We'll usually open a window in each of the bedrooms as well.
On low, only 1 fan turns on. On high ,they both turn on. Since each fan just has a regular 3-prong cord to plug into an outlet, you have to wire the 2 outlets (in the attic) to a switch in the hallway. I think they provided the switches as well. So in the end, you flip 1 switch in the hall and the outlet where the 1st fan is plugged into turns on. You flip the 2nd switch and the outlet for the 2nd fan turns on.
Our thought was that since they're right next to the bedrooms we wanted to make sure they were quiet fans. We also chose the bigger model because we didn't want to put a smaller fan in each bedroom.

I see the 2 fans, 1 intake. Don't you think you could have done the same with an 18 Patton suspended from the attic, ducted to your same size intake and on low you would get 4500cfms. That would probably be for around $200 max. rather than your $900-1000. I do like the idea that the fan should be suspended and not mounted on any wood.

I hadn't really thought of that, but seeing how this is a Doityourself forum... that should work. Course you wouldn't want to climb into the attic to turn it on high/med/low, so not sure how you would wire it... also, you would want to make sure the ductwork fits tight around the fan and the grill - otherwise you're waisting the effectiveness of the CFM.
We certainly like what we have...When I was researching WHF's, I was skeptical about the whole thing. However, after asking friends/family, and Internet research I found that
a) they really do cool your house in the mornings and evenings
b) they really do save you money (compared to running air conditioners)
c) they air out the house really well
But the biggest complaints were
a) they are loud
b) since they suck in air from outside, if you have bad allergy problems this can bring on your allergies.
The posts below are all good ideas to solving the they are loud complaint...

Usually the low speed(4500dfms) is good enough, but it is not hard cutting the control switch and splicing in an extension and mounting it from inside the house. I did that with the Patton. Your sounds very efficient.


Tags: whole, house, worth, whole house, into attic, open window, attic fans, attic will, between ceiling, between ceiling joists, ceiling joists, ceiling shutter

Tecumseh 8hp Snow King Parts Help

Hello Everybody,
I just happened to stumble accross this site and WOW , Boy am I glad I did..
My Dad felt the need to upgrade snowblowerI am the happy recipient of Old Faithful an MTD 8hp 24 cut Model 315-580-000 Date code J024B (early 80's). I have all the original manuals that came with the blower. I am trying to locate a parts breakdown for the Tecumseh Engine (HM80 155241 Ser 4194D). I need a new muffler, head gasket, carburator part #.
I'd like to decarbon the top end of the motor, replace the muffler (bad), and look around for a new carb (we always seemed to have some type of carb problems over the years. Dad always seemed to forget to run the fuel out of the carburator.)
Is there a source online or elsewhere that I can locate a Parts breakdown or exploded parts view that I can use as a reference?
Thanks Everybody....
alphadesigns@aol.com

Here is a digital manual you can add to your paper. http://www.cpdonline.com/692509.pdf
I dont recall if it has any parts listings or not, I dont think it does. One place I think you may try is sears. http://www3.sears.com/
Try using just the model # of the engine, then try using the model # of the unit.
Heh or hang out until puey shows up, he'll give ya the xact stuff

As far as a site for parts break-downs...don't know of any except here, where i'll be happy to assist. You have a 1985 model year machine. You missed a letter (either J or K) immediately following the spec number on the engine but I can still help you out. Carburetor assembly - 632334A, Carb Kit - 632347, Intake manifold gasket - 27915A, Carb to manifold gasket - 33263, Muffler - 35056, Muffler bolts - 651002, Bolts locktab - 31588, Head gasket - 34041B. As far as the carburetor is concerned, with the exception of a rusty carb you should be able to soak this in a quality bath type cleaner (I like Napa #6401) and use the aforementioned carb kit and be good to go.


Tags: tecumseh, snow, parts, help, always seemed, manifold gasket

Replacing Old Sewer Line Tree Roots

I'd like some feedback on ways to fix the problem of tree roots in old clay sewer drains. My house was built in 1949, the drain is clay pipes. About 6 or 8 months ago the kitchen sink clogged and the result was a rotorooter company came out and showed me massive amounts of tree roots (the worst I've seen, he said) and a camera inspection showed where the roots were getting in. There was one area where the clay pipes were actually separating meaning not just roots but dirt could be getting in there.
Previous to this, I had 7 years with absolutely no problems, never had a rotorooter come out, no drain clogs.
Last night the kitchen drain backed up again. I could see that the clog was not in the drain under the sink so I suspect the sewer line again. I went into the back yard and opened the trap (which btw is new, pvc, added recently but not by me, I think the previous owners walled in the original trap and built this one about 10 years ago) and I could see a trickle of water, a trickle mind you, which makes me think that the problem is not in the sewer line but in the house?
When I had the camera inspection earlier this year, the quote to replace the sewer line all the way out to the city tie in, was $7500, a little more for trenchless. We are in no place to pay for this in cash without digging deeper into debt which I do not want to do.
Two questions: would a plumber dig up just the area that is bad and do a fix of just that area? Or is that just prolonging the inevitable. Is there any less expensive alternative?
Second... the area where a new sewer line would run would include running it underneath: an electrical conduit, sprinkler system hoses, landscaping including sod, steel landscape edging, railroad ties, imbedded concrete edging (don't ask, previous owners used old concrete sidewalks and imbedded them 6 feet deep to form and edging, my landscape/sprinkler installer could not remove them and ended up planning around them instead), a gravel driveway and finally, out into the city tie in to the alley which is under concrete. Wouldn't trenchless be the best way to go? If I had to have a trench dug, does that $7500 include all the problems of going around the above? Or would that cost more as they started working?
And then there is the question, is it really the sewer line or somewhere in the house? Nothing else is or has ever backed up in the house.
Help!

Do the other sinks, toilets, showers and bathtubs drain properly? In other words, is the drain problem confined to just the kitchen sink? If so, then the problem is somewhere between the kitchen sink and where this particular branch line connects to the main (or intermediate) drain.
Do you (or anyone in your household) pour meat juices or fat from cooking down the drain? Do you have a garbage disposal?
As for clay pipe and problems with roots...once roots get into clay pipe you will continue to have problems. The only solutions are to either eliminate the roots (almost impossible) or else replace the pipe. Clay pipe is slightly porous and has many joints. Roots will go for any source of water and in the case of clay pipes they will wrap around the pipe and as they grow will actually crush the pipe to get more water. Once the pipe is broken (or the joints are broken) the roots will love it. Your only course of action is to either replace the pipe or periodically have the pipe cleared by a professional sewer-cleaning company all the way to the street sewer.

Well, to answer your question (and mine), we did discover the problem is actually in the house, not out at the sewer. It's the kitchen drain only, the rest of the house is fine. We do not have a disposal and I am very careful to not let anything go down the drain, we have a good strainer and I never put grease down the drain. However, the pipes are old.
We snaked it with a 25' auger and the clog is further than that so I read on another post about an enzymatic drain cleaner and found a Zep product so for the past 24 hours I've given the drain 2 doses of enzymes (has to sit 6 hours) and two doses of boiling water. Now the drain is slow so I'm going to try one more dose before calling a plumber.
The sewer line is not the problem, THIS time.

Going from the sink there would be a section (I'll assume 3 pipe) that has a decent slant but eventually along that length there's probably a section that is only very slightly slanted, if a slant is even apparent, resting on the ground and ending up in a larger pipe junction.
Over the decades sludge tends to build a rock hard layering up along the bottom of that near horizontal section of 3 pipe such that by now you end up with maybe a 1 open section running along the very top of that pipe. That rock-hard layering cannot be removed by any means and is so much a part of the pipe by now that if you try to chip away at it with a chisel you'll just break the bottom of the pipe off...so summon up a great force of will and simply leave it alone.
What you can probably do to fix your immediate problem is to cut horizontal section of the old pipe away at some point up along the slanted section on one side and a bit out from the larger pipe section it joins to on the other side, and replace that entire section with plastic (PVC) pipe from Home Depot. They sell a 12 foot length if 3 PVC pipe for about $7. To join that pipe to the existing pipe they sell rubber couplers with stainless band clamps on each end for about $4 each. So your parts cost is very affordable.
To cut through the old pipe and the PVC pipe you'll need an electric saw of some type. I use a handy Black Decker Powered Handsaw in the $50 range that comes with both a wood and metal cutting blade (like their PHS550B 3.4 Amp), selecting the metal cutting blade for this job. When it cuts through the PVC pipe it melts the plastic a bit leaving undesired edges which I quickly file off. Takes a minute or two to cut through 50 year old 3 metal pipe.
At the end of the job your fix won't be perfect since where the new 3 pipe attaches to what's left of the old pipe near the larger pipe junction will be that only 1 open section at the top still, meaning the new nearly horizontal plastic section is always going to have water in it up to the point of that opening at the top of the old 3 pipe. But the drain will work again and it'll drain much faster than before.


Tags: sewer, line, tree, roots, sewer line, clay pipes, down drain, kitchen sink, larger pipe, area that, area that just, area where, camera inspection, clay pipe

Pilot Light Will Not Stay Lit When Water Is Hot

The pilot light goes out when the burner has heated the water. In the morning, I can light the pilot by pushing the button down and striking the electric igniter. But, once the burner turns off, the pilot can be lit by pushing the button down but it goes out the second the button is released. The pilot looks the same when the water is cold and will stay lit and when the water is hot and it won't stay lit.

What is your make and model hot water heater.
I have $1.00 that says its a AO smith.
If so I can help. Even if its not a AO smith I can still help, but I need the make and model.
Mike NJ

Its a Ruud Pacemaker series 50 gallon residential gas water heater.

What year is the HWH? It may be under warranty and you may just need to pay labor.
These have several saftey devices if its newer.
1. May be t couple. Might be loose at gas valve or sporadic failure.
2. The gas valve may be defective and fails ony on temp rise. The gas valve also has a part to play with the pilot. Is the water abnormally HOT????
3. Combustion Shutoff Device Tripped.( possible resets itself) There is another feature that is a one time use item, but you would not be able to relight. #3 is a door that closes to not allow air in the combustion chamber.
These HWH are not homeowner friendly. With this new technology installing in a dusty enviroment, like by a dryer often causes issues such as this.
I suggest you call Rudd and get a tech to look at it. I could tell you take the burner apart but I advise against it. These are sealed chambers and need to be assembled correctly for saftey reasons.
Mike NJ

I have an ao smith GVR 50 water heater, 5 years old, pilot will not stay lit. Cleaned intake screen, still won't stay lit.
What is next?

Next step is usually to replace the thermocouple. If your pilot is bathing the thermocouple in flame, and the pilot goes out when you release the start button or turn the dial from pilot to normal run, the thermocouple probably needs replacing.

I have an ao smith GVR 50 water heater, 5 years old, pilot will not stay lit. Cleaned intake screen, still won't stay lit.
What is next?
What is the series # of the unit?
These have FVIR technology. The t couplers are part of a whole burner assembly.
If you can give me the serial # I can check for you.
I was a AO Smith rep.
Mike NJ

I had an issue where the pilot would not turn on under any condition. I replaced the thermocouple assembly and gas valve (thermostat) so now the pilot will light and stay on until I move the selector from pilot to on, but once the water in the tank is hot the burner and pilot extinguish completely. The following day I had to do the same thing. Is there a setting or gap on the thermocouple or anything I missed?

What is the make and model heater? What is the serial #.
Mike NJ

I believe it is a AO-GCV50 (Promax 50 gallon residential). The gas valve part number was 182791-006 is now 9000249005. I replaced it and the thermocouple assembly. I appreciate your help! I am not home at the moment, but I can take a lunch to get the serial number if you need it.

what year is it do you think? This way I know what FVIR technology it has.
Mike NJ

The year of the model is 2005

Just verify series 100 correct?
It has a corderite disk and it need cleaning if so but I want to make sure.
Is the unit by a dryer or furnace?
Mike NJ

Yes, it is the 100 series. I replaced the gas valve with the 200 series per the vendor because the 100 had too many problems. The unit is in my garage in an elevated area specifically built for the water heater. I have no other appliances or fuels stored near it. I have enough clearance to walk to and from it and the garage is ventilated (although no breeze comes through). I am not familiar with the corderite disk. Is this the same as the ceramic flame arrestor that is part of the FVIR? If so, it would make sense for me to remove the thermocouple assembly again and find a way to clean the area out. Are there specific cleaing instruction for this unit? The gas valve thermostat came with a very wide filter that I have no idea or even where to install. I looked inside the chamber to see if it had one so I'd get a clue, but I didn't see anything like it. I am confident enough to do the work, but I just need some instruction. Thanks again!

On the bottom of the water heater there is a black lint screen. remove this and get a bright flashlight. Look in the slots and look up on the under side. There is the disk. Air comes in and goes through there for the burner. Does it look like a layer of lint is there?
Let me know and I will instruct you further.
By the way its not the t couple. There is a high temp thermistor that is in line with the t couple. If you changed the t couple with a stote bought one then you put yourself at risk. When these units starve for air it affects the draft and CO poisoning can occur. Basically you can be dead.
These devices reset when the heater cools down below 180C-210C. But it trips for a reason.
I advise to to shut the unit down if you have done this. You have by-passed a saftey feature.
Let me know.
Mike NJ

I purchased the entire t couple assembly at an authorized AO Smith dealer (Ferguson Enterprise), not a hardware store. It is the PSW12204 pilot assembly if that means anything to you. I just checked the black air intake lint screen which was surprisingly clean, but I removed a little surface dust.
I will inspect and clean the radiation shield and flame arrestor in the near future. I'm missing the flexible brush that was supposed to come with the unit, but I will vacuum inside if I can. I believe I have a FVIR type C3 by the way.

Let me know I will be here for another hour or so.
What does it say on the tag on the orange wire from the igniter?
Mike NJ

The one I removed says 180#9675;C 183828-180 760-312. New one says 200#9675;C 183824-200 760-312

New one says 200#9675;C
OK good. Thats the ungraded pilot assembly AO smith new there was a issue so they raised the temp on the thermistor.
If you have your old assembly, its that little round fuse thing in line with the t couple.
OK if you looked in the air vent and up, you probably seen a thin or thick layer of dust? You need to vacuum that. How do you do that you ask?
What I do is get 2 ft of 1/2 copper. Put a ellbow on the end. Get your shop vac and insert the copper end in the vac hose and duct tape it good. What you made is a vac tool. Turn on the vac, and make sure you got good suction from the ellbow. Stick it in the air vent, get the ellbow facing up and vacuum that disk real good. Its about 10 round and you should feel the edge as you vacuum.
Let me know.
Here is some good stuff for ya. They say use a brush but I find a vacuum works better.
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/fvirtechbulletin.pdf
Mike NJ

I was able to get in there a little with a vac, but not nearly as well as I wanted. It appeared to be fairly clean as I found a long delicate brush to gently go over it with, but I want to do a better job with the vacuum. I reassembled everything I think better than before then relit the pilot and it stayed on with no problem. As I adjusted the temperature to warmer temps (between B C) the burner finally kicked on. I am going to have to wait to see if this did the trick for now. I will check in with you tomorrow or the following day. I am definitely going to build myself one of your vacuum tools. Did you ever try using PVC? I'm asking because it's more readily available on this side of the planet. Mike, you are a great help and amazingly creative! I'll talk to you in a few days kind sir.

I am definitely going to build myself one of your vacuum tools. Did you ever try using PVC?
I usually use 3/4 copper but you need to cut the ellbow so it will fit when you turn it up to vacuum the under side of the disk.
You will see what I mean when you do it.
I was going to make a tool and patent it, but AO smith stopped making this series. Its a 200/201 series now with different technology.
What happens is that disk gets clogged and the burner starves for air. The unit does not draft and the flame starts burner down towards the air. It gets close to the thermister that trips at 200C. This shuts the gas off. When it cools down you will be able to re-lite the unit but it will keep happening until you fix the air issue.
AO smith use to have the only resettable thermister. They have a button on the front by the burner window now.
The other companys had a fusible link in the t couple. Once they tripped you would need a whole new pilot assembly every time. These where home store models.
AO smith is ahead of everyone and most adapt the technology from them.
Mike NJ

You should still patent it.. I'd still buy one.
I understand your articulate explanation and appreciate your patience and willingness to teach. Interesting history behind the technology.
Today I took the hottest shower in quite a long, long time. I think the issue is resolved because I can turn the thermostat down and I can hear the roaring flame stop and then start up again when I turn it up again. It wasn't doing that before. I would have to relight it. I am still going to clean it in a week or so. I'll see if I can find 3/4 copper tubing this weekend. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your help! Thank you.

Your welcome. Glad I can help.
Mike NJ

I have AO Smith Promax 40(gallon) 100(series) and I ran into the same problem with the pilot light being blown out when the unit turns on itself to heat the water. I hear a loud poof noise and then the pilot light is out, as if being blown out forcefully.
It all happened when a guest is trying to use my upstairs bathroom tonight and there is no hot water upstairs (I don't know how long it has been that way since we rarely go upstairs ourselves). I went to check on the water heater unit in my garage that feeds upstairs and saw the pilot light is not lit. I followed the instructions on the water heater and lit the pilot, it came on fine and started to heat the water. I left it like that and waited half an hour, there is hot water upstairs! Went back to the water heater to replace the cover on the bottom, and saw the pilot light is out again. I re-lit the pilot following the instructions, I guess since the water is still hot so I did not hear the sudden rush of gas and the pilot light stayed on. I waited there for about 5-10 minutes to see if the water heater will start heating itself once the water cools down a little. And when it did you can hear the loud hoosh of gas or fire going up inside the unit like its about the do some major 'heating', but the pilot light goes out quickly like being blown out (with a poof sound) and everything goes quiet. I waited a few minutes and re-lit the pilot a third time. Its been an hour now and the pilot light is still lit...
I wonder if this is going to happen again? I am definitely interested to check tomorrow morning to see if the pilot is still lit. If it is out again, should I shut off gas to the unit and call for service?
Is this a defective part issue? Malfunctioning? Or needs to be cleaned?
Your input is greatly appreciated!

Your pilot lights and your burner flames up so it seems like it may be the same type of issue of just having to clean the unit. I'm not an expert so I'll see what a second opinion or expert would say.

I wonder if this is going to happen again? I am definitely interested to check tomorrow morning to see if the pilot is still lit. If it is out again, should I shut off gas to the unit and call for service?
Is this a defective part issue? Malfunctioning? Or needs to be cleaned?
Read my posts below. #13 and up. Also the link I posted. The disk is clogged and the unit is starving for air. It trips a thermister when the burner is on, because the flame rolls down looking for air and overheats the thermister.
Make a tool and vacuum the underside of the disk as I described.
If you call a professional they most likely will want to sell you a new heater. Most plumbers (service techs) dont know about the new technology and have no clue on troubleshoot or repair them. Most are parts changers and they get paid by the revenue they produce. So to come in your home and vacuum your heater is not what a typical tech will offer. It makes no money. This is why I am not in the trade any longer. Cant rip people off in the tuff economy.
Mike NJ

Hi Mike,
Thanks for all of your good info.
I have an aosmith promax xclv 30 100. pilot wont stay lit, tried cleaning arrestor holes to no avail, have had plumber in twice, he's apparently not online saavy and i feel like i've done so much research on this problem over the 3 weeks i've not had hot water that i know more about the thing than he does.,., ANYway, i'm looking to see if its ok to just remove the glass window from the sealed chamber to allow more air flow. is the sealed chamber a safety measure keeping flame in/combustion air out in case of outside vapors? i keep nothing vaporous/flamable around the unit.
I know the stupid thing works, i can get it to stay lit intermittently and its only 6 yrs old,,,, i have an older model, w/o the fvir sys, in another home and it still works fine,,,,,, i feel like i just want to open the sealed chamber so it will work like the older models... is this thinking correct? I am not a plumber but am frustrated to have to replace the whole unit when i see it working from time to time

Hi.
Thats a 10 yr water heater. You should not have to fix anything regarding parts or tank. You only need to pay labor.
1. If the pilot does not stay lit you need a pilot assembly. Its covered under warranty, and you pay labor. Should be around $99.
2. If the pilot light goes out sporatically, but you are able to light it, it a clogged disk most likely. Read my posts below.
tried cleaning arrestor holes to no avail,
Did you read my links below??? Arrestor holes? Its a ceramic disk. If you take the black lint screen off from the bottom of the heater, then lay your head real low on the floor and look up in the lint screen opening. See a layer of dust? That needs to be vacuumed. You need to make a tool to get in there.
AO smith should change the pilot assembly anyway since they went from a 180celcius thermistor to a 200c. And the guy that comes out should know all this.
Look at the tag on the orange wire. Whats it say? 180c, 190c, 200c?
But if you call AO smith, they will give you the correct plumber to call in your area that repairs them under warranty, and should know clean the disk. You cant just use a plumber off the street.
Open this link and click on the top where it says heater info. Put in your info then call AO smith.
This is for ao smith, state, etc... ( any ao smith product )
https://warranty.hotwater.com/default.aspx
ANYway, i'm looking to see if its ok to just remove the glass window from the sealed chamber to allow more air flow. is the sealed chamber a safety measure keeping flame in/combustion air out in case of outside vapors? i keep nothing vaporous/flamable around the unit.
I know the stupid thing works, i can get it to stay lit intermittently and its only 6 yrs old,,,,
No, no, no. Do not by-pass any saftey device.
I was a rep for AO smith.
Mike NJ

Um i'm sorry that seemingly based on my post youre assuming I havnt read up or performed any of what you suggested.
I mentioned in my post that I cleaned the ceramic flame arrestor holes.
Cleaned it according to the vid sent to me by aosmith:
Standard Gas Control Water Heaters - Filter Cleaning With this included in their response to me:
" If after cleaning the flame arrestor does not correct the issue, the next step would be testing parts, and checking the installation as far a gas pressure, venting, and making sure the water heater is getting the proper combustion air. Thank you, Brandi Technical Support Department "
My unit is not raised so I cant get low enough to see up into the bottom vent holes to see the disc itself, as you suggested.
I have mentioned aosmiths information to my plumber, who I have used and many of my contractor friends have used for decades. (not to say he may not know anything about aosmiths or the ins and outs of the new fvir systems). He has performed their tests and has found everything to be as it should, except for the combustion air obviously...
He will not change out parts, if he sees it as unnecessary, based on testing them as functioning, so I dont have to pay for repairs that arent going to fix the problem, as many have done in most of the forums i"ve read thru.
Been in touch w/aosmith warranty also - Their reply: " If there is no proof of purchase is available, (which I dont have), than the warranty will go by the manufacture date of the water heater which is April 2004, and the water heater came with a six year limited warranty on tank and pars which would of expired April 2010 Thank you, Brandi Technical Support Department "
I"ve been through alot already w/aosmith, which is why I feel like I have to look into things further myself since I havnt gotten anywhere so far and seemingly many others are having the same issue.
I have read all your posts. Over the past weeks I have read many other sites and forums on the subject as well.
One forum I came across had a plumber drill a hole in the arrestor, which seemed to fix this issue. Another forum had someone drill a hole right thru the metal plate near the window, which also solved this problem.
Since you present with some credentials, I wrote to ask your opinion on the opening of the sealed chamber.
I understand it is a safety mechanism, but if it is for vapor block and I dont have that concern....
Again, I just feel like this is a relatively new unit, which again I can get to work intermittently, so I"m trying to avoid having to spend to replace the whole thing,,,
thanks for your time

My unit is not raised so I cant get low enough to see up into the bottom vent holes to see the disc itself, as you suggested.
You need to put you head against the floor basically. You need to see the disk, and it can be seen. Just saying.
Anyway here is a good way to tell if its startving for air.
With the water heater lit, turn the gas valve all the way up so the burner comes on. Look at the flame through the window. It should have a crisp strong flame, that sits above the burner slightly.
If its not like that but wavy, and rolling around its a air issue. Not strong and blue but yellow and rolling down under the burner.
I mentioned in my post that I cleaned the ceramic flame arrestor holes.
Cleaned it according to the vid sent to me by aosmith:
I have found the toilet brush does not work very well. This is from experience. What AO smith should have done ( which I was going to market) is a vacuum attachment made for this purpose. This is what engineers came up with...Uggg.
Also, sometime if the disk is clean, the burner could have debris sitting on top of the burner. This falls down from the flue, and may cause the same symptoms.
Was the burner removed?
Point blank the thermistor is overheating and causing your issue, and or replace the pilot assembly. The thermistor is part of the pilot assembly.
XCV units have always been 10 yr tank models. I believe the parts warranty may have changed from 6 to 10 but I thought is was 2005 sometime.
If you can post your s/n I can see what I can do.
As a professional I cannot recommend any alterations you have stated in your post.
Just a note: One of these water heaters cause a fire, and the house burnt to the ground. The investigation revealed that the disk was drilled out with 5 holes around the perimeter. Its was found to be the homeowner using starter fluid doing a engine repair, plus he drilled the holes in the unit from advice he got on a web site.
His homeowners insurance did not honor his claim. He had no permit either, and the water heater was installed on the floor in the garage, and not 18" high as it should be.
Just a thought.
Mike NJ

Hi lawrosa,
It appears that your extremely technical with the AO Smith units. I can use some of your professional expertise.
I just recently downgraded my home from a 3500 sqft to a 2200 sqft home. I have been in my new home for three months now. The reason why I mention is that my gas bill is almost three times higher then my previous much larger home.
We do not use the oven much as we used to and one thing got me concerned is my water heater.
It is a hit and miss with getting hot water. there are times that I will get up in the morning to take a shower and the water only warm and with the water knob to the shower set to the hottest.
So I decided to set the water heater setting from A to C. After changing it to C I began to get some hot water but it was still a hit and miss. There is times that I would have to run the water at the hotest setting to for about 7 min to even begin getting warm water.
It is a newer home built in 2006. So I decided to call my local gas company PG&E and they sent a technician out to do a safety check. He confirmed that there is no gas leaks and the pilot is on. He told me the reason to my high gas bill is probably because I have set the water heater to its highest setting "C".
I explained to him that I changed that recently and explained why. He said it sounds like that I may have water pressure issues but I don"t because the water flow looks fine in faucets and showers.
I began to research this issue on my own and noticed multiple forums mentioning problems with the AO Smiths water heaters but your posts seem to be the most informational and professional.
I was hoping you may be able to shed some light on my problem?
I have the model GVR 50 100 with a build date of 1/13/2006
any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Asocii,
Do you get hot water out of other faucets and not just the shower? It may be the shower valve itself. They have balancing spools today and they do go faulty.
Also on a not common occurance the dip tubes in the heater itself crack and cause cold water to mix with the hot at the top of the heater. This is instead of the cold water going directly to the bottom of the heater and pushing all the hot water in the tank up and out.
Next you could have a faulty intellivent gas valve, and its not regulating the temp properly.
You need to does some testing to try to determine the exact symptoms.
Also any type of re circ line on your system? Could be bad check valve if you do. Or espeacially if you have thermostatic shower valves are a common cause.
Mike NJ

Thanks for replying Mike...
It is the same symptoms on all faucets... eventually you get hot water out of it after running for quite a while... My concern is not much about how long it takes to eventually get some hot water but if I may be having problems with the heater itself.
I would need to get my brother here to check the things your talking about since his is the handyman in the family. Any procedures that you recommend to test for these cracks that you mentioned? also any other steps you recommend?
Thank you very much for your great input!!!

You know the heater may be borderline under warranty. Its past the 6 yr warranty date if you go by the manufactures date but it goes by when the final CO was issued for the home.
You may need to hurry on this one.
You can get a service guy out and only pay labor costs. Or you can call AO smith and have the parts you need sent for free and install yourself.
I will post back later with additional info on what might be the issue.
Please post exactly what symptoms you have.
I am beginning to think on a long shot if you have a slab home you may have a slab leak on the hot line. This will deplete the HW and cause the burner to fire often to maintain temp.
A good test is to turn off all running water in the home and make sure toilets dont leak. Then look at the water meter to see if its spinning.
If its spinning and you are sure all the water is off then you have a larger issue to deal with.
Mike NJ

Thanks for the reply... If "slab house" means a concrete floor, then yes it is a slab house. Also, the symptom is typically, after running hot water for about 10 minutes you no longer have hot water and just luke-warm borderline cold.
Thanks again!

Check your meter as I descibe.
Let me know if you have meter movement.
If not sounds like a dip tube issue.
Your would be like this and not part of the nipple.
Here is one where its built into the nipple.
Mike NJ

Hello,
State Ind. 40 gal. tank - Nat. gas
Mod # PR640NBRT971
Ser # D99106061
Is it just a matter of replacing the T-coupler as it says elsewhere as a solution to this problem?(do I need to remove & bring w/ me to source replacement?)
Can I use generic replacement or must I get a specific manufacturer replacement?
Thanks for the help!
Gotta go, gotta throw!

I believe 1999 water heater takes standard replacement. 18" I believe.
Mike NJ

lawrosa
I have 6.5 year old AOS Promax GCV 50 100 that is acting up.
I have vacummed the underside of the disk as your earlier posts recommend. However, my sight glass has a thick residue that makes visibilty of the pilot impossible and the full burner fire difficult to observe. Debris build up is evident on the top of the burner. Some blue flames point up and some point down. I believe the disk is blocked by debris. The white gasket for the window and the burner panel is also discolored.
In your experience is this a burner cleaning event or burner replacement event that I need to pursue?

I
n your experience is this a burner cleaning event or burner replacement event that I need to pursue?
Clean the burner and check the flue for debris or obstruction. If you have the disk and cleaned from the underside its always good to remove the burner and clean from the inside also.
Mike NJ
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Tags: pilot, light, stay, water, water heater, pilot light, pilot assembly, sealed chamber, lint screen, appreciate your, being blown

Marlite Paneling

I am getting ready to install marlite paneling over drywall in our bathroom and I don't have any previous experience with this material. I have plastic strips for the joints (the guy at the hardware store said I needed these), and liquid nails. I am not sure go about installation. Do I nail the strips up and fit it like a puzzle? Help. Thanks

Did the salesman tell you about the daisies? These are plastic flowers with screws. They are a fanciful way to enhance the fastening of the marlite. I always predrill the holes so that the screw doesn't walk around and scratch.
Start in a corner or the ceiling if you are covering it too. There are 3 different plastic strips: corner, end, T-splice. Make sure you have enough to do the whole job before you start!
More than a Carpenter
http://www.carpenter.cjb.net

He did not mention daisies,but he did tell me that I needed to glue the board to the wall. Do I nail the plastic strips, or glue them also. The marlite is in the pattern of 4 square tile. I don't think the daisies would look right with this style. I appreciate your help.
quote:Originally posted by More than a Carpenter:
Did the salesman tell you about the daisies? These are plastic flowers with screws. They are a fanciful way to enhance the fastening of the marlite. I always predrill the holes so that the screw doesn't walk around and scratch.
Start in a corner or the ceiling if you are covering it too. There are 3 different plastic strips: corner, end, T-splice. Make sure you have enough to do the whole job before you start!
More than a Carpenter
http://www.carpenter.cjb.net

I have not used nails or glue on the strips.
MTAC


Tags: marlite, paneling, plastic strips, More than, More than Carpenter, than Carpenter, about daisies, about daisies These, about daisies These plastic, about daisies These plastic flowers

vent-a-bathroom-fan-through-roof

I bought a stronger fan to vent our bathroom shower to replace a smaller one that was vented through the roof. The newer fan has a larger opening (i think it is 3 1/4 by 6) and cannot use the old flexible ductwork. Access to the crawl space is not existent.
What is the best way to vent the new one through the existing roof vent (solid ductwork or flexible?)
thank you in advance

You most likely have a 4 flex tubing, and your new vent has 6 opening. There is a variety of reducers out there. Pick up an adapter from 6 to 4 and use it to attach to the original tube.

masterjoe,
doesn't the reducer limit the venting power of the fan? I bought a stronger one because our bathroom need it. i wouldn't want to limit it.
also, i am having trouble connecting the flex tube to the 4 adapter, is there a trick to this?
thanks

You're indeed reducing the cfm rating of the fan by 33%, I agree. However, it depends on how far that run is from the vent to the roof. Reduction may not be sufficient enough to worry about it.
Also, there must be a flapper at the vent opening to prevent the backflow...right??
The right way to connect tubes is to use a Al tube nipper, which permanently indents two tubes and joins them together.
However, I usually slip one over the other and screw in a couple of sheet metal screws around the overlap.

The run to the roof is about four feet.
When you mention using an Al nipper to join the reducer to the flex tube, I think the flex tube is not made of metal. I was thinking about using duct tape to join the two. How does that sound?

Personally, I would get rid of the flex pipe - this stuff should be banned from the face of the earth. You are about to compromise the capacity of the fan by increasing the static pressure it has to overcome in the reductiuon from 6 inch to 4. Don't add to the problem with the flex duct - this material adds significantly to the static pressure in the system. Can you reach the connection at the roof, and if so, I would install metal duct.

yes i can reach the vent in the roof but only by sticking my head through the ceiling in the bathroom with the fan removed. There is not crawl space opening to give me access to the area above the bathroom. However, I was thinking about making an access area.
The problem is we have tongue and groove finished wood covering the walls on the second floor above the bathroom. Cutting into them with lath and plaster behind them, sounds messy. Plus, what do I put in it's place? A small door?
do you have any suggestions
thanks

Sometimes, its best to step back and take another look at the situation. Can you get to an outside wall by going horizontally? How far away is it?

I vented the old fan through the exterior wall but I was never happy with it. I used one of those dryer vents with the louvered slats that close when there is not air flowing out through them. The problem with that was that I installed the vent on the fascia board under neath the over hang eaves and because the board is at a slight angle to the ground, the louvers stayed open all the time. I was a little worried about pest infiltration.
So, I reshingled my roof recently and put in a big vent (probably 10) and attached the flex tubing from the old vent fan to it. Then, I changed to the bigger unit and I have been unable to attach the existing flex tubing due to the wider opening in the new vent fan. I know I can get the reducer but vent up to the roof without the crawl space. And if I make a crawl space (which I don't relish given the age of the house) I am not sure I know finish off the opening so it looks nice.
What do you think?
thanks

You definitly want the duct connected on both ends. You mention the installation of a roof recently - is it possible to work from both ends. Get the reducer, install it at the fan and push this up into place in the ceiling. Go up on the roof a carefully remove the shingles around the vent, remove the vent, reach down in and grab the flex duct (I hate the stuff but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do) and bring it up through the hole in the roof and attach it to the vent, then replace the vent. The flex duct would have to be sized long enough that you can get it through the roof but not so long that it sags as it goes up.
Another option (I spend a lot more time on home improvements than I should) is an iteration of the above - except use metal duct. Put an elbow on the fan to turn the outlet up and maybe, a 2 ft piece of metal duct on the elbow. Put the whole thing in the ceiling and then go up on the roof and remove the vent as above. You should be able to get a fairly accurate measurement for the piece of duct needed to connect the two.
Will take a bit of screwing around but in the end, it will be worth it.
I agree that venting to the underside of the soffit is not the best idea.
No easy suggestions for getting access to the crawl space other than opening up the wall and installing a removable panel. I have the same situation except I custom made a small raised panel door and installed a jamb and casing just like a full size door - but that's a lot of work

All of Dave's suggestions are indeed good ones; and the most desirable ones. However, my experience with bathroom ducts indicate that venting warm and moist air to the outside is not TOO critical that you have to lose your sleep over.
How big is your bathroom?? 6 opening tells me that the fan that you bought is a dual unit with lights, isn't it??
CFM rating on your fan strictly depends on the size of the bathroom. Overkill is better than underkill; however, if overkill will give you too much headache, it ain't worth it.
You said your other bathroom fan has 4 ducting, right??
I don't know the size difference between your two bathrooms but it kinda tells me that the current fan that you have is an overkill.
If you really want to install that fan, you should follow Dave's suggestions. I cannot encourage you to downgrade CFM rating of your fan(I only think that it's not that big of a deal).
I'm just suggesting that there is always an option to get your current fan exchanged for one with 4 duct opening.

Masterjoe's last suggestion is an excellent one and may get you out of the prediciment your in. However only you know the exact conditions you are faced with. I have a tightly sealed house and I went to a larger (more expensive) exhaust fan because the one I had, Coupled with the crappy installation done by the builder (Flex pipe) wasn't doing the job. We had a terrible problem with mildew. When I remolded (complete gut job) the bathroom, I tore down the ceiling and found out why the fan wasn't doing the job - even though it was vented directly to an outside wall 4 feet away. Somehow the flex pipe he used got kinked so the opening was reduced to less than 1/2 of what it should have been. Since the fan was 20 years old I replaced it and vented it to the same location - but, I used metal duct with Taped joints. Been two years now, and not a hint of any problems - no condensation on the walls, and I can even see myself in the mirror.
If your bathroom is of the average size and considering your within 4 feet of the roof, I would opt for a fan with a 4 inch duct.
One last comment - you mention the roof vent - I hope you are connecting the vent directly to the vent - not just placing it near the vent.

here is the whole story:
the original fan was not doing the job. it was small with no light. the mirror would steam up and the room as well. so, i went with a bigger unit which i think moves 170cfm. it has been great but is not yet vented to the outside (which i know is bad for the insulation and framing). hence, me wanting to vent it.
the old fan had the 4 (i am guessing at this dimension but it seems logical) round flex pipe vented up into and beyond the lip of the roof vent. the flex pipe is still connected to the roof vent but i couldn't connect it to the 3 1/4 x 10 opening in the new fan (which has a light as well as a fan). I am thinking about doing the reducer and attaching the flex tubing before I install it back into the opening.
what do you think?

170 CFM is more than double the capacity of 'normal' bath fan(70+CFM). If you really prefer to use it with the existing 4 ducting, please double check the flex tubing for any obstruction similar to the one Dave described. Remember, 170 CFM fan won't vent out all 170 CFM due to reduced ducting. It will be less.

Thanks. I'll try it.

3.5 by 10 inch is 35 Sq inches. 4 inch round duct is 12.5 Sq inch - about 1/3 of that which the fan is designed for. This will raise hell with your static pressure, thus reducing the air flow from the fan. It is an expontial function and the end result will likely be not much better than when you started.

so in other words, it is metal ducting or nothing?

The reduction from the 3.5 by 10 inch rectangular outlet on the fan to a 4 inch round already compromises the situation significantly. The use of flex duct adds to the problem - I would not use it.
The performance of this fan will be so far off the charts, you can't predict the results. Assumming the fan can overcome the static pressure - which it can't, the velocity through a 4 inch duct will be 1950 ft per minute - way way in excess of duct design velocity.
They make roof vents specifically for venting baths and range hoods. If it were me, I would look for one of these and think very carefully about how difficult it would be to go up on the roof, remove what you have, and install the proper vent. The vent line from the fan must be connected directly to the vent - not placed near it or in it.

the flex tubing that is there is stapled or nailed into the vent in the roof. the guy who replaced my roof last year attached it.
if i hear you correctly, i should use metal and not reduce it. the only problem is getting access to the crawl space. i have never made an access door before but if i need to, i will have to learn.
there is a built in shelving unit on that side of the house that i was thinking i could remove and replace after. i can't imagine trying to fit the ductwork down through the roof given that the opening in the roof and the vent in the bathroom, don't line up. so i would imagine that i would be doing a lot of angles to make them both meet.
if you think i am thinking about the right thing, please let me know and i will go ahead with it.
thanks again

Your latest plan involves many angles, you mentioned??
That involves using elbows; and it reduces CFM capability as well.
You just have too many obstacles to properly install that 170CFM fan and get the most out of it.
Again, why not taking it back to the store and exchange it for the one that will fit and save you unnecessary headaches??

i appreciate your feedback but i am confused. why is overkill not a good thing here? if the fan is too large and powerful for the space, why can't i just work around that? isn't it better than having one too small.
i realize i will not get it's fullest potential, but it has got to be better than a smaller one. the one that i had before, did not do the job at all.
thanks again

I understand your frustration with your old fan that didn't do Jack.
I had a similar problem and I ended up spending $90 and bought the decent fan(110CFM).
What I'm driving at is:
Overkill is better than underkill; no question about it.
But, 170CFM fan with 4 duct(+ elbows) is like having a corvette engine on a lawnmower. Your infrastructure(ducting) won't handle the capability of your mighty fan.
Since the duct won't deliever and dissipate all volumes of air that your fan discharges, there'll be a back pressure building up which may exert a strain on your fan's motor.
Bottom line is: It's your bathroom and it's your project.
But, I'm just giving you some friendly pointers to consider.

I appreciate your help. REally!
And I understand the concept of the corvette engine on a lawnmower, but I was hoping to do what I can with the ducting so that the engine stays in the car and not on the lawnmower (are we getting too abstract?). Anyway, metal ducting with only a few ells (or angles) would allow the fan to vent to it's capacity with little resistance.
I am leaning toward accessing the space because it would be good to have some regular access anyway for future use. I just don't want to ruin the tongue and groove original woodwork that i have on the walls of the room above the bathroom.
I can't return the fan because I bought it a year ago and I have been using it for that long. I didn't want to have to admit to this but: I have been venting it into the crawlspace for a year without connecting it to the roof vent. I know this is a no-no so please don't beat me up too badly.
thanks again

Look, if I were you and I made the decision to get into the crawl space, I'd go with somewhere near the correct doct size. take a trip to a roofing supplier and check out what is available in roof vents. and go from there. HD usually has a good selection of ductwork, including adapters, elbows, etc.
Also realize that if you are trying to exhaust 170 CFM from the bathroom, ya gotta make it up somewhere. That is you have to get that much air into the room or the fan just pulls a slight vacuum and nothing moves. The easiest way to do this is to keep the door open a crack or cut he bottom off so you have a gap at the bottom. - 3/4 to 1 inch should do it.

thanks again. i will get the correct duct work and the door already has a 3/4 to 1 inch gap underneath. it is definitely pulling enough air.
thanks again

Best of luck to you on your endeavor!!
Pls come back if you need more help.


Tags: vent, bathroom, through, roof, crawl space, flex tubing, roof vent, better than, thanks again, flex duct, have been, metal duct

ge-spacesaver-microwave-handle

After nearly tearing the door off my GE Spacesaver Microwave, I'm trying to replace the handle. There are screws that I can't access that go into the top holes in the handles, and others that go into holes under that that I can get to.
Anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get this thing back together???

Hello cagoulet and Welcome to the Do-It-Yourself Web Site and the Small Electric Appliances Forum Topic.
Not sure what you mean by After nearly tearing the door off the appliance. Needs more detailed information. Meaning by accident or attempting to remove it to fix something???? other than a broken handle...????
Not sure what you mean by I'm trying to replace the handle. If you cannot take it off, that's one aspect. If you already took it off, that's another. Kindly explain in more specific details.
Your statement ...how I can get this thing back together??? implies the handle is already removed. Thus it seems to reinstall is simply a matter of reversing the removal process. Or would seem so. More details would help greatly.
Retail small appliance parts dealers can also help determine what the possible problem may be. Bring the make, model and serial numbers. Appliance part stores and parts dealers are listed in the phone book.
Check back on your question several more times. Other members posting replies in this forum topic may offer you additional advice, ideas and or repair methods.
Use the reply button to add additional information or questions. Using this method moves the topic back up to the top of the list of current questions automatically.
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I also have a broken door handle. The bottom of the handle is attached to the door with , I think a screw, but I can't see it from the rear of the door. The top of the handle ia attached with a screw that is visable from the rear of the door.
Thanks

If it's like mine, to get to the magic handle screw, you have to *carefully* pry out the soft plastic door seal. Use something like a butter knife, and just work in the gap between the plastic door frame and the softer door seal. Go slow and easy, a little at a time, and the whole thing will come out pretty easily. (And it will press right back in when you're finished.)
You will also get access to screws that will allow you pull out the door glass and give it a good washing.
If the door seal doesn't come out easily, then you should probably search GE's website for a manual and see if it has an exploded view. Or call their helpline, if they still have one.

Moli, Ya did good. I followed your instructions and they worked fine. Since I just finished I’ll enhance your info with my experience (it will let me relive the kill). The interior door frame, that Moli references is a piece of flexableish plastic, about Ѕ inch wide on top and bottom and 1 inch wide on the sides. The glass in the door is integral with the door itself so don’t think of removing it at this time. Using Moli’s butter knife approach I started on the top upper corner (where it is hinged) as this gave me more room to get my first knife in. I then gently inserted more knives ( I used 3) till I could work the frame loose. As it sits lovingly by my feet, I notice it has plastic flex clip extensions on both the inside and outside, (to engage door frame and window frame at the same time) so be careful and take it slow releasing both top and bottom clips as you go . Finalinfo is to wait on running the dish washer till U get it out as it will need to cleaned. Guess I’ll just have to take mine to the shower with me. Thanks again to Moli, Good on ya!!!

One thing, if the glass has printing on it, be careful not to clean it with anything harsh or you might take the color off. Just warm soapy water should do it. I'm not sure what part you were talking about in the dishwasher, I think I'd avoid that as it gets hot and could deform the plastic or wash the color off the glass.

Hi
I googled to this forum and followed all of your suggestions and I would like to thank you. I was on the phone to GE forever and they told me that I would have to get a certified technician to test for leakage. While I was waiting on hold I finally figured out what all of you were saying and within a few minutes it was done. Again thanks so much.

moli rocks!!! worked so well that I have put a butter knife in my toolbox!!
great advice!!

Just want to add my thanks to Moli. The repair job took a couple of minutes. I joined this site just so I could say thanks!

Just to add my thoughts: I had a GE spacesaver microwave, and replaced the handle similar to the way Moli so aptly suggested. The replacement parts are quite expensive. I finally found a replacement EWave microwave for about the cost of replacement of the GE plastic parts that were deteriorating. That's the 4th of our GE products that has not lasted but a few years. Can you read my mind?

I have the same problem and can't seem to get past the 2nd set of plastic clips. The first panel has been removed but now there are (about) 9 other clips on the panel just before the handle. I don't want to break these but they need some real tough prying to get them open.
Any suggestions on get this 2nd panel off?
Thanks!

Suggestion tried. It worked.
I removed the handle and could not have done so with your kind help.
Thanks so very much.
I registered just to say thanks.
Jim T

Hi-
Great site. I got my plastic door seal with no problem. On the other hand, I only see 1 pair of screws for the handle. I have the jvm1600. The handle has two sets of screws, one for the inner handle and one for the outer handle. I can see the second pair of screws under the assembly that has the plastic shield, etc.
How do I get that off so I can access the second set of screws?
I tired for a long time and could not do it. On the left side of the door where the handle is there is one clip that seems to be key, but after I got past that I still could not access the screw.
Please advise.
Thanks,

I appreciate you all posting your solutions to accessing the screws for the door handle replacement... I called GE for there answer and they told me this was not a consumer replaceble part.... So then I search the web and found this site.... I followed you instructions and got most of the inner bracket removed with a butter knife... I then removed the screws.. Now I have me a new handle on my old microwave.... thanks for saving me some money... You can also save money by not buying the replacement handle from the GE website... I found a local parts dealer who sold the replacement handle for about $37.00...
thanks again....

Originally Posted by wiltriker
I called GE for there answer and they told me this was not a consumer replaceble part....
You can also save money by not buying the replacement handle from the GE website... I found a local parts dealer who sold the replacement handle for about $37.00...
Is GE two faced or what??? They will sell the consumer a part they say can't be replaced by the consumer. To boot, they over charge for it too!!
Shame on GE!

I have a ten-year-old GE Spacemaker Microwave, model JVM1339WW. The handle broke off, and I purchased the replacement for approx. $55. The part came with no instructions, and the GE Answer Line told me the part was not user installable, and that I would have to pay for a service technician to call.
Fortunately, I found this forum. I used a putty knife to follow Moli's advice and in LESS THAN TWO MINUTES had installed the replacement handle and reinstalled the trim.
Pretty poor business practice by GE, if I may say.

There are obviously many GE microwave models that use similar door designs, so I will add some details for my unit that I bought in 2002, which is a GE Profile Spacemaker Oven, Model No. JVM1490WD003. This unit mounts over the stove and is a combination range hood, convection oven, and microwave oven.
Using 2 small putty knives I was able to easily remove the inner plastic frame or seal as it has been called here. The parts list calls it a choke cover. This is a snap-in piece, and I believe it is not designed to be re-used. Hence the non-user serviceable aspect. Despite being gentle three or four of the tiny clips broke off. Not enough to prevent it from snapping back into place later more or less securely so I reused it. I am confident that had I call a professional service technician as GE recommmends, he would have trashed it as a consumable part.
Then, a big surprise: only the top one of the two handle screws was accessible. The bottom screw head was covered by the black metal skeleton of the door. They could have designed an access hole, but that would have boosted production costs by at least 1/16 of a cent per unit, so they didn't.
OK, so now I had to remove the white plastic and glass front panel to get at the remaining screw. This piece is doubly fastened. There are six small phillips screws attaching the front panel to the black metal center structure of the door. After you remove those, the front panel is still attached by clips molded into the plastic. These are similar to the one-way clips of the choke cover, but they are much heavier and have no flexibility. The panel is flexible enough along the top and bottom that you can dislodge the clips by pulling at the edge but the sides are too rigid. To solve this I made the two clips on the latch end of the door flexible. I took a pair of diagonal cutters and cut a pie shaped wedge out of the plastic just behind the clip, but leaving the clip attached. I don't know what to call that structural feature that I cut... a gusset or brace, or stiffener, or support, whatever. Anyway, cutting out a piece of it provided space for the clip to move back and release its grip. I only had to do this to the two clips mentioned, and I was able to remove the front panel and access the bottom handle screw.
Next problem was to get a grip on the broken stubs of the old handle so they wouldn't turn when I removed the screws, which you have to re-use because the replacement handle comes without them. They are hard to grip because they are down in a recessed area. I successfully used a needlenose electrical plier... putting one pointy end into the screw hole and gripping with the other.
From there, all was easy. The new handle fit fine. The front door panel snapped back into place and then was doubly secured by replacing the small phillips head screws. The choke cover pushed into place gently and easily and seems secure.
As to lessons learned, for any future replacement I would remove the choke cover before ordering the replacement handle. That way, if I broke too many of the little clips during the removal for the choke cover to go back into place securely, then I could order a replacement for that at the same time as the handle.

I have a 1996 JVW1339WW002 GE Microwave/Hood.
Your fix worked. 2 minutes time.
Compare that to THIS:
Called GE. Service call JUST TO GET THE PRICE was $99.95.
Tweaking GE's nose would offer a smigin of satisfaction.

Moli,
Thank you for your help. I used two butter knives and it worked seamlessly just as you described it.
Thanks again,

Wow I'd really like to see a pic of someone's door frame with an indication of which strip / panel to remove. The door appears to have several different distinct seams. . and I am hesitant to start prying until I'm sure I am in the correct spot.

Thanks for your help, the door handle change on my Kenmore elite took a few minutes after I had given up (I read another blog that said I needed to contact a service tech $$).
After I finished, I started to kid my fam about the glowing effects of the radiation leaking through the door. My 14 year old said, Dad, don't be dumb. Just put your cell phone in the microwave, close the door, and then call yourself. If the call goes through, it leaks, if it doesn't, it doesn't. Wouldn't you know, the call didn't go through!
I did walk away a little humbled by kid logic.

The bottom threads on our GE Spacesaver Microwave Oven Handle broke. I understand it is a common complaint. First I just used a longer screw to generate a couple of extra threads in the plastic handle. That worked for nearly a year and then that gave way. Rather than spend $60.00 for a replacement handle, new screw, and shipping on a 10 year old Microwave, I left the screw in the handle, even though there was not threaded section left to attach to it. I then dribbled a lot of Gorilla Glue around top opening of the bottom connection along the slot. As the Glue hardened overnight, some of it became globs below the bottom of the handle. The golbs were easily removed with a kitchen knife. The Gorilla Glue set up overnight and created a new indestructable attachement to the Micorwave Door and the Screw. It is a piece of Cake... Looks Perfect and Works Perfect.

I had the same problem as beesquare--after the plastic seal came out (thanks to Moli!) only two of the four screws were accessible. I used a 1/4 inch black oxide bit to drill access holes for the other two in the metal door skeleton (where the holes should have been in the first place!). Problem solved.


Tags: spacesaver, microwave, handle, replacement handle, choke cover, butter knife, door frame, door handle, door seal, front panel, into place

Digital Optical Audio To Rca

I just bought a plasma LG 60pa6550 and it appears the only audio output it has is one for Digital Optical. My trusty old stereo that still sounds fantastic only has RCA outputs. I've been searching for a cable that would have RCA jacks on one end and digital optical on the other end. Does such a thing exist? I'm seeing a lot of options on the internet, but none look like they would work. Any suggestions on what I might need?

Optical outputs are digital and use light to transmit the signal. The RCA inputs on your stereo are analog and use copper. You need a converter, not just a cable.
Here's one from Amazon. Gefen is a good brand.

Thanks for the reply. I actually just bought one from radio shack to see if it would work. I also had to buy an optical audio cable. The converter was about $40 and the cable was $17. With tax and everything, it ended up costing me about 65 bucks just get my old stereo to work with my new tv. A cost I really didn't consider when purchasing my new tv.
So anyone that is considering buying a new tv and plans on using it with an older stereo system for surround sound, etc, keep this additional cost in mind. Or make sure your new tv has analog audio out, which I don't think many/any do these days...
Thanks for your help!

If I were you I'd return it all. Cables are something you NEVER buy from a store like Radio Shack or Best Buy, because they are pure markup. There's virtually no performance difference between cheap-yet-good-quality off-brand cables and expensive name brands, especially with regard to digital connections like optical, PCM, and HDMI. That $40 adapter is overpriced too.
I've used Monoprice audio/video switchgear and cables for years with no issues and saved quite a bundle.
$23 for the adapter..
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1format=2
And about $2-3 for the optical cable, depending on the length you want..
http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...02cp_id=10229
Shipping would be about $8, so you're still less than $35 all told.

Dealing with this same issue on an LG with an older receiver. I was going to order from monoprice (I order from them whenever possible) but then noticed there was a 3.5mm out on the left side of the LG. a couple bucks for a 3.5mm to RCA did the trick. Went into the LGs menu and turned off TV speakers, now the TV remote controls the receiver! It's a low cost alternative to the $60 RadioShack or $25+s/h monoprice option. Plus I read that those optical to analog converters don't work for 5.1 sources or at least downgrade it to stereo.


Tags: digital, optical, audio, http monoprice, http monoprice products, just bought, monoprice products, order from, with older, would work

Broken Window Glass Double Pane Replacements

Hey guys one of my tenants broke the inside pane of one of my windows. There is no manufacturer info on any of them. there is a sticker but it only has order and customer info that says they were installed in 1991 so who knows if the company is still around.
I was thinking of breaking the window apart and just replacing the frame with a piece of plexi but not really sure if I can (thickness and what not).
I dont care about the insulating factor since its a rental and they broke it so screw them. He said he understands it will be removed from his deposit but I dont want to pull from deposit until they move out which will more than likely have to be to replace the window itself.
Im not overly worried about fogging to be honest since they will be the ones dealing with it.
is it possible to pull the window apart and just replace the glass?
thanks

You should be able to replace the double pane with a single pane. You might have to use regular old fashion window glazing to make up the thickness you loose with the single pane. Best fix would be to measure the glass and have a glass shop make or order a double pane to fit.

You will be miles ahead if you take marksr's advice and just get a new double paned insulating glass unit (IGU), as it will be much easier and faster than dinking around doing it half-as$ed. Been doing this for 21 yrs, so here's what to do:
You didn't say if this was a vinyl window, but I am assuming it is. There will be glazing stops around the perimeter of the glass on either the inside or the outside (usually inside). 2 of them fit between the other 2, and they are the ones that you will remove first. Take a sharp chisel or stiff glazing knife and tap it into the crack of the glazing stop to separate it from where it snaps into the sash. Start on the end and work your way across the length of the glazing stop in order to remove it. Be very careful with the tip of the chisel if you don't want to scratch up the vinyl. Repeat this step, and remove all 4 glazing stops.
This will expose the edge of the IGU. You will then be able to measure it's size. Measure to the closest 1/16. Once you know the height and width you next need to know the thickness. The most positive way to measure that (for a DIY'er) is to actually remove the IGU and measure it. The thickness is critical to how the sash will go back together so if it's not right ur usually screwed.
So the IGU is usually sealed to the sash on the opposite side with either silicone, glazing tape, or sticky gunk that's like chewing gum. A table knife or linoleum knife bent at an angle or sometimes a pizza cutter bent at an angle will usually do the trick, you shove it between the glass and the frame, it goes in about 5/8 or so, and you rip the sealant around the perimeter that holds the glass to the frame of the sash.
Once its out, measure the thickness carefully, pop it back in, and put one or two stops on temporarily. Or put all 4 on if you think they will lose them before you get the glass!
Call the measurements in to one of the commercial glass houses (like city glass) and they will get your glass made in a week or so. Then you can put it in, done deal.
The other thing you could do, if the sash is removable, is just take the entire sash out, take it to the glass house, and let them repair it for you. Then send the tenant the bill.
NOTE: A few of the older vinyl windows (circa 1991) did not have glazing strips... so if your window does not, the above advise would not apply... it would be possible that what you have is the type of window sash that has angle bracing, and you have to take the sash out, take screws out of the corners and carefully tap the sash apart with a block of wood and hammer. On that type of window the frame basically just slips over the IGU.
If you have any questions you can always post some closeup pictures of the window... its hard for us to give specific advise sight unseen.

We have to replace a couple IGUs every month, it seems. We hooked up with a glass supply house and get the wholesale price instead of having to go through a local glass shop and that saves us quite a bit of money. We also then do the installation ourselves.

One note...
Some vinyl windows actually have to be cut apart at the joints and then solvent welded back together. The frame completely encloses the IGU. That's a job for a full service glass shop...but it can be done. Silverline/American Craftsman did that as I remember, maybe others as well.
As to the label info, we might be able to find the manufacturer if you post all the info written on it.

thanks guys. this looks like it might be chemically welded. I can take the pane out fully yes. I didnt know a glass shop could do the repair. Again I was looking for a cheaper way to handle it since I already also know im charging them for the rugs when they leave. they arent bad tenants at all actually the opposite, just lazy and dumb as bricks. more the guy than the woman lol.


Tags: window, glass, double, pane, glass shop, they will, apart just, around perimeter, back together, bent angle, from deposit, glass frame

Adding New Window To Existing Wall W/Aluminum Siding

Wife and I are looking into adding an average-sized (maybe 34 x 52 or thereabouts) aluminum-clad double-hung wood window (or two side-by-side mullioned together) to get some more light into our living area. I'm not afraid of trying to DIY it myself, and I'm well-read and confident with framing the rough opening, re-routing any electrical, etc. from the inside. My concern is with cutting the hole in the exterior sheathing/aluminum siding, and with flashing/sealing/trimming the new window on the exterior. I did some searching and found several other threads (here and elsewhere) asking similar questions, but none of them dealt with aluminum siding and aluminum trim (always stucco or wooden clapboard or shakes with brickmould or 1x4 trim stock)
I guess the first question I have is, should I be looking for a replacement window with no nailing fin, or a new-construction window with a fin? The word replacement as a general term doesn't really make sense since I'm not replacing an existing window, but this isn't 'new construction' either as the wall is already sided and I presume I would have to cut back the siding to expose the sheathing so I could nail the fin to it... but then I would have to cover the gap between rough opening and cut-back siding with trim somehow, and I'm afraid it wouldn't match the trim on the rest of the windows on the house.
Assuming I have the window (whichever the correct type I should get is), I've torn down the sheetrock inside and framed the rough opening (minus cutting the hole in the exterior sheathing)... can I just use a reciprocating saw to cut the hole in the sheathing from the inside, flush with the inside edge of my framed rough opening? Or does the exterior opening need to be smaller or larger than the framed opening? Will I need to remove and/or cut the siding back from the edges of the hole I cut in the sheathing, or should I leave it flush? Finally, what type of products do I need to properly seal/flash the window, and then to trim it? I presume caulk, window and door expanding foam (not Great Stuff), some type of flashing tape or wrap, and some white aluminum window trim and screws?
I suppose it would probably help if I posted a couple of pictures of how the existing windows are trimmed on the exterior to assist in figuring out make the new window(s) match. I'll try to do that this evening.

To answer your first question, the answer is that you want a new construction window that has a nailing fin. Whether or not they call it a replacement window or not (that term is thrown around quite loosely) the bottom line is whether or not it has the nail fin.
Since you mentioned you can handle the framing, I'll omit the advice about needing headers over windows in load bearing walls, since you probably already know that!
then I would have to cover the gap between rough opening and cut-back siding with trim somehow, and I'm afraid it wouldn't match the trim on the rest of the windows on the house.
That is something you will just have to figure out the best you can, since this is your only option, unless you want to take all the siding off that side of the house.
can I just use a reciprocating saw to cut the hole in the sheathing from the inside, flush with the inside edge of my framed rough opening?
Yes, but if you do that, you will likely want someone on the outside who will hold his hands on the aluminum siding to hold it back tight to the sheathing so that it doesn't shake on the blade as you cut it. Use a blade made for cutting wood w/nails.
As to your other questions, once the rough opening is cut, you will need to cut the aluminum siding back farther on all 4 sides so that you can have a spot for the nailing fin to lay and also so that you can install a weather resistive barrier around the opening. How far you cut it back really depends on the size trim you will be using to cover the nailing fin... and as you mentioned you want it to match the size and style of the rest of the window trim on your house. Let's say you have 2 trim (brickmould) around all your windows. Take the width of the window itself (not the rough opening) and add about 4 3/8 to that, and that is how wide you'd cut the siding, keeping it centered on the rough opening. An angle grinder and a 1/16 metal abrasive blade will work best. Tin snips will work for the flat parts of the lap siding, but not for the interlocks. Make sure your cut is perfectly plumb, and try not to cut the building paper behind the siding. (shim the siding out with a scrap of 1/4 plywood or something so that you cut into the shim, not into the paper).
Once it's cut back, you could either apply a flashing tape to the bottom and sides, or some strips of housewrap. Keep in mind that the opening in the siding will allow water to get in behind the siding. Your housewrap or building paper which is behind the siding is what is protecting it from harm. You could then either slip j-channel behind the siding, or if you plan to bend something to cover the cut edge of the siding, you would probably do that now.
When you install the window, follow the mfg's directions on whether or not you caulk the nail fin to the house or not. Some are finicky about not caulking the bottom especially. Be sure you install the window level, plumb and square, and keep it centered on your siding cutout, which also should be level, plumb and square. Then you would install flashing tape over the nail fin on bottom, sides and top. It's always nice when you can seal the tape to the sheathing on top, and then have a flap of housewrap that is tucked UNDER the existing the top edge, and then laps OVER your taped nailing flange on top. You'd probably want to install a drip cap under the siding on top, then slip your trim underneath that as you trim the exterior of the window.
The j-channel which will be hanging loose and unattached can now be screwed up tight to the brickmould with a minimal amount of zip screws. (like what they use on gutter downspouts). If you think it would look better with some caulking around the perimeter, go ahead, but keep in mind that if you do a messy job of caulking it will look worse after you caulk than it did before.
The interior of the window should be shimmed according to the mfg's specs- usually at each corner and every 16 on center. Great Stuff door and window foam can be used to air seal and insulate, but just don't use their regular variety of foam. DAP latex foam also works well but IMO it's best for cracks 1/2 or smaller.
Your brickmould doesn't have to be anything special if you are just going to wrap it with aluminum trim coil. Standard SPF or SYP 2x lumber can be ripped to any size you need on a table saw, and you can screw it on as trim. Then rent a metal brake, bend some capping and install.
Some windows have a very flexible nailing fin that will not hold the window perfectly flat on the wall. So you would be wise to check how the window is laying on the INSIDE of the house (in relation to the wall surface) so that it is even all the way around. What can happen is that the window might be sticking in 1/8 beyond the wall on one corner... and be 1/4 behind the wall on the opposite corner. With these kind of windows you really need to have someone outside pushing on the window (before you foam it!!!) while you are inside, and then when the window is flush, pop a trim nail or a trim screw through the jambs and shims to hold it to the rough opening. Do each corner this way, and it will save you a lot of headaches when you go to install your interior trim.
This sure got long. I need to cut down on the Mountain Dew!

As promised (albeit quite a bit later than later this evening...), here are some pictures of how the existing windows are trimmed out. So, this is what I'd like to match:
The wide shot of the entire window is a different window than the close-up shots; the window with the close-up shots was easier to get to to take pictures, but has black shutters on either side, whereas the window(s) I would be adding would be on the same wall as the wide-angle window, without shutters.
Without actually taking the trim off to look underneath, it looks like the existing windows are probably trimmed out with 2 or 2-1/2 brickmould which is wrapped in aluminum trim coil. I notice there's a flange along the top that tucks under the piece of siding that runs across the top, presumably to function as a drip cap. I also notice that there is no J-channel capping the cut edges of the siding where it butts up against the sides of the window trim. Instead, the aluminum trim coil just runs back into the sheathing perpendicular, and the cut siding edge butts right against it.
In the close-up shots it looks like the caulking between the siding and trim does not run the entire length of the sides of the window, but that particular window is under a soffit. I would imagine there has to be caulk down the sides of the window in the wide-angle shot since it's much more exposed to rain?
So, I guess two questions from this: 1) do the existing windows look like they're done satisfactorily, and 2) will this be fairly straightforward to duplicate so the new window(s) match?

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I must have missed your reply somehow.
To answer the 2 questions... the windows look okay, (the way they bent the metal in lieu of the j-channel is fine) but appearances can be deceptive. The one thing the pictures can't show is whether or not you have an adequate weather resistive barrier (WRB) behind the siding. The way aluminum (steel and vinyl) siding works is that water can get in behind the siding at numerous places (such as between the j-channel and siding around your windows) but its the job of the WRB to protect the wood components of the house from repeated wetting. If you have a WRB behind the nailing flanges of those windows (they kind of look like Pella windows to me), then the installation looks good. Caulking around the windows is quite pointless, but is often done just for appearance' sake. You would never caulk inside a j-channel to try and seal up the cut edge of the siding... that's not the way it's done, although I have seen a few people try.
As to the 2nd question, I think straightforward would be dependant on your skill and the tools you have available. For someone who has used a metal brake to bend trim coil, yes it would be straightforward. Problem is, I'm not sure that what you have is just your common run of the mill trim coil. Pella windows often come with an optional exterior Enduraclad trim coil that can be custom bent (with a heavy duty metal break, such as the Tapco Pro19). It is pressed into a groove around the window (it's actually carefully tapped into that groove with the help of a block of wood and a hammer) and that's what your pictures seem to indicate you have. Enduraclad doesn't come with a hem bent on the outside edge, they are only hemmed on one side (the side that fits into the groove) so that would have to be custom bent on site. If that metal seems very stiff ( roughly .032 mills) it is probably Pella's Enduraclad, but if it's thin and bends easily, (roughly .019 mills) then it's probably just aluminum trim coil. Trim coil is easier to work with... the Enduraclad is a little harder to work with and it takes a special metal brake that can bend and hem the thicker material. Most metal breaks will only bend up to .028 if I recall.
It looks to me like they capped the brickmould first (maybe with trim coil) ... then tapped the Enduraclad trim into the window groove last to make a sort of j-channel for the siding.
It's not impossible, but I don't think I would say that it's straightforward.
I suppose its also possible that the original installer tried to make a cap out of trim coil, and then tried to snap his custom made trim into the window groove in the same manner as the Enduraclad would tap in, but that sometimes results in a loose fitting cladding that might need to be caulked into the groove in hopes that the caulk glues the cladding into the groove. You could try to do that with trim coil too, I suppose. But it would take a bit of skill to get the hem just right.

No worries! I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions!
They are indeed Pella windows, and I had been planning to use Pella ProLine windows for the new ones as well (Lowe's down the street carries them).
As for my skill level, I think the only time I ever used a metal brake was in shop class in 8th grade, so it's been a while. I certainly don't have easy access to one either, I would have to rent one I presume, and it sounds like even a rented one may not be sufficient to work with Pella's special Enduraclad trim?
Despite my enthusiasm, I'm thinking it might be a better idea to hire someone, at least for the exterior/finishing part of the job. As I said, I'm fully comfortable doing the rough framing from the inside, re-routing any electrical, repairing drywall, even installing the window itself. But not having any experience with a metal brake and wanting to make sure the exterior work is done correctly so it looks good and doesn't leak and cause problems later on, hiring someone is probably the better bet.
I understand you're not familiar with my area, but would it be reasonable to hire someone for only the exterior finishing portion of the job, or would it be an all-or-nothing type situation? I would have to imagine that on most home construction projects there are several different crews doing the rough framing, installing the windows, and installing siding/trim... but I also wouldn't be surprised if most contractors wouldn't find it worth their time to come out for such a small job as trimming out a single window. On the other hand, am I likely to save much money by doing most of the work myself, or would the difference in cost to hire out just the exterior trim work vs. the entire job be fairly insignificant?

You would definitely be ahead if you did most of the work yourself, provided you can find someone to come and wrap your trim. Perhaps Lowes can recommend someone to do just the wrapping for you. They have many contractors that partner with them, and some that they will just kind of feed work on the side.
If you buy the Enduraclad through Lowes (tell them what you need bent, your pieces will need to be at least 3 to 3 1/2 wide from the sounds of it) have it ready to go and it will make things go a lot smoother. Be sure you ask for a contractor who KNOWS work with the Enduraclad because if you get a doofus, he will not know that he needs the heavy break, or cut and hem it, and he would probably put dents in the cladding as he tries to tap it into place. It's not the sort of thing you would want a rookie to be doing for you. So I'm kind of glad you see the wisdom of getting a pro to do this. You might be able to DIY if you found a place that rents the Tapco Pro 19 but there would be a learning curve and you'd probably not be happy with your first few windows you did. And ur welcome, glad to help!

I hate to revive this old thread, but it's better than re-posting the whole story...
Still haven't done this project, but I'm getting ready to pull the trigger before the weather gets too cold, and I'm wondering if someone can tell me whether Pella's Frame Expander and Receptor system would work to trim out the window to the siding and cover the nailing fin? FWIW, I took apart the custom bent trim around one of my existing windows, and it looks like they essentially built a custom version of the Frame Expander with regular trim coil, wrapping it around some 1x blocking strips nailed overtop of the nailing fin. Curiously, though, there's no flashing tape or anything overtop of the nailing fin, and only a bead of silicone along the top of the window where the trim coil meets the siding.
From what I can find online, the Frame Expander and Receptor system is what is recommended for my application: http://www.pella.com/Documents/pdf/I...tions/808M.pdf
However, my question is what to do where the siding butts into the edge of the frame expander? Won't water leak in there? The installation instructions for the Frame Expander that I can find don't make any mention of caulking or otherwise sealing the joint between the siding and the Frame Expander. As I said above, my existing windows don't have anything sealing the siding to the trim either.
Also, will I need to install a drip cap or something similar along the top of the window, or will the Frame Expander serve that purpose, with a bead of silicone between the siding and trim, as in my existing windows?
Thanks!

The person who bent the trim coil did it in such a way that it serves as the j-channel for your siding. If you look closely at the 2nd picture you posted, you will see that there is nothing that keeps water from running in behind the siding (this is normal, because that type of siding relies on the weather resistive barrier- your housewrap- to protect the sheathing and framing. Water that gets behind the siding runs out at the bottom of the housewrap).
You cannot use the Pella expander in the exact same way that your window is currently trimmed, because it will not lay flat. Your thin trim coil has a hem on it and additional bends that help it lay flat. You could get Pella's receptor, which is an L-shaped piece that accepts the end of the expander, and holds it straight and flat. But you would need to install j-channel behind the siding, and some wood trim for the receptor to nail to.
A drip cap is always a good idea, and in your case it would be installed where the siding (or j-channel) meets the trim, so as to shed water out over the trim.

Thanks for the reply!
I figured that I would need both the expander and the receptor from Pella. I was thinking that I would cut the rough opening through the siding and sheathing, cut the siding back from the rough opening to accommodate the nailing fin, and then install some wood trim/blocking overtop of the nailing fin of the proper thickness so that face of the trim/blocking would be flush with the face of the window frame, and so that the outside edges of the trim/blocking would butt against the cut edges of the siding. Then I would install the Frame Receptor to the blocking, with the 'leg' of the frame receptor going between the edge of the blocking and the siding, effectively 'wrapping' the blocking. Then install the frame expander to cover the gap between the window accessory groove and the frame receptor.
In that scenario, of course, there's no j-channel which covers the cut edge of the siding; it would just be a butt joint where the siding runs into the frame receptor (similar to how the trim is done here about 3/4 down the page, but in my case instead of Azek trim I would have blocking 'wrapped' by the frame expander/receptor). So, my questions are A) will it look OK or will the cut edge of the siding be unsightly, and B) would I need to caulk the joint between the cut edge of the siding and the frame receptor to keep water out, and/or to make it look clean and finished? It sounds like the answer to B) is no for the purposes of water, given that the existing windows do not have caulk where the siding runs into the trim coil... but perhaps yes for aesthetic purposes?
Put another way... what is the purpose of the way J-channel 'wraps' the cut edge of the siding, as opposed to the siding just butting right into the window frame or trim? Is it strictly for aesthetics, to hide the cut edge of the siding? Or is it functional, in that it significantly decreases the amount of water that can get behind the siding? If it's aesthetic only, then could I hide the cut edge with caulk, rather than J-channel?
If I were to do J-channel, how would I attach it behind the siding, given that the slots for nailing will be covered by the siding?

J-channel is purely for looks. Siding needs to be able to expand and contract slightly, so the gap is left on the siding perimeter to allow for that. You could hide the cut edge with caulk but I doubt that you'd be able to get your cut that exact. If the siding was cut back just enough for the window nailing flange... and your receptor and expander was, say, 3... you could conceivably lay a 3 wide board against the window and use it to make a line on the siding and then cut the siding back with an angle grinder and 1/16 abrasive wheel. Maybe then the cut would be close enough to caulk. You could also simply slip the j-channel behind the siding before you install any wood trim. Once your wood trim, receptor and expander have been installed on the window, a couple screws through the j-channel and into the side of the receptor and wood trim would pull the j-channel tight to the trim and would hold it in place.
You might also make your life easier by just removing all the siding, starting from the top of the house down to the bottom of the window. Cutting your RO out would certainly be a lot easier this way, and you could ensure that the window flashing tape is stuck to the housewrap all around the opening. This would ensure that nothing will leak around the perimeter of the window / rough opening.

Got it. Using an angle grinder with abrasive wheel to cut back the siding was exactly my plan, but you're probably right about not being able to get it precise enough to have the gap be small enough to caulk.
Right now I'm thinking frame expander and receptor with blocking underneath, and then white J-channel around to capture the cut siding edges -- much easier than trying to get a precise enough cutback on the siding and caulking the joint. A possible alternative would be to use Pella's factory-installed Enduraclad 3-1/2 flat casing exterior trim rather than the frame expander/receptor to cover the nailing fin, although 3-1/2 might be *too* wide and it doesn't come any narrower in a flat profile to match the other windows, which is why the frame expander at 2 or 2-3/4 is more appealing.
As for tearing off all the siding, my understanding is that since it's metal siding instead of vinyl it's very difficult to take it off without bending/damaging and be able to put it back on. Not to mention I'm installing the window on the first floor of a two-story gable-end wall, so that would be a lot of siding to remove...

Do you have any type of sheeting under your t1-11? you might not have anything to flash. t1-11 is not like vynyl siding where water is allowed to get under it and the flashing would stop water from getting in the window. you need to stop water from getting behind it period you dont need a back up flashing.
If it was my house would frame out the window then create a window casing with 1x6's ripped down to fit. put some trim on the ouside and use a replacement window. chaulk every where with best silicone chaulk. if you want extra protection you can add a piece of flashing to the top of the window trim by cutting a line above the window trim in the t1-11 with a circular saw using a plywood blade. then side a piece of flashing in the slot and cover the top of the window trim and chaulk some more.

I finally got this project started, and have the rough opening framed from the interior. Just getting this far was somewhat of a chore -- we found some unexpected electrical running from the basement up to the second floor that we had to reroute, and the wall ended up not being framed the way we thought it was which posed some unique challenges.
Another surprise, and the basis of my question now, is that there is no plywood/OSB sheathing on the outside of the stud wall. Instead, there are sheets of 1-thick rigid foam board insulation, and then the siding is installed directly overtop of that. This poses a few problems, the first being that I ordered the window for standard 4-9/16 wall thickness (1/2 drywall, 3-1/2 stud, 1/2 sheathing), not realizing that there was 1 thick insulation instead of sheathing on the outside. My planned workaround is to cut the rigid foam out as far back as I cut the siding (beyond the RO), and install narrow strips of ripped 1/2 plywood or OSB to build out the wall to the correct thickness. I'll nail the window's nailing fin to that.
My question is, I should probably caulk between the ripped 1/2 material that I install and the rigid foam surrounding it, right? Will regular door/window sealant (same stuff I'm going to use behind the window's nailing fin) work? Also, I know that in new construction the nailing fin would be taped with a rubberized/butyl-backed flashing tape like Grace Vycor or similar; should I attempt to do the same? If so, I'll have to carefully slip the flashing tape underneath the siding since I'm only cutting the siding back about 1/4 further than the nailing fin, correct? How sticky is the backside of flashing tape? Would I be able to fold it in half lengthwise, attach it to the nailing fin itself first, and then gently pull the siding away from the house while I unfold the tape underneath the siding?

Pella windows measure 3 11/16 from the nailing fin to the start of any factory applied extension jamb. So if your windows have a factory applied extension jamb, I'd probably rip it off and make my own. (but that's just me.) You could also leave it on, and just extend it with another extension jamb that will bring it out to the correct width.
I'd recommend that you not caulk the joint between the foam and the osb. instead, just tape it with the flashing tape. in your case, while the window is OUT, I'd probably try and get that flashing tape as far behind the siding as you could, and let it cover the seam between the foam and osb. It is pretty sticky stuff (in the summer... but not as sticky in the winter) Use a heat gun or hair dryer to heat it up as needed.
Install the window on top of that flashing tape, then once it's in, apply another layer of flashing tape on top of that. You will have better success if you do it this way.
One tip I might share is that its sometimes helpful to carefully score the paper on the back side of the flashing tape, and remove only half of the paper from the flashing tape. It enables you to wiggle it back behind the siding without it sticking to absolutely everything. Once you have it in position and press it down you can then peel the rest of the paper off, and press it down too. Not sure if you will want to try that but you can file it away for future use.

The window does have a factory extension jamb installed, since I ordered it for 4-9/16 wall thickness. I thought about removing it and installing my own, but I don't have a table saw so getting precise, straight cuts on whatever stock I used would be difficult, to say the least. Besides, I can't exactly install the nailing fin on top of the foam, so I'm going to have to cut back the foam to clear the nailing fin anyway -- installing some 1/2 osb won't be that much extra work, and then the wall thickness will be correct for the window as-is.
Great advice on using a double layer of flashing tape, and skipping the caulk. That should be easier and less messy. I've got two options for flashing tape: Pella's instructions say to use Pella SmartFlash, which is available at Lowe's in a 3 in. x 50 ft. roll. The other option is Protecto Wrap BT25XL, which is twice as wide (6 in.), also 50 ft., and the same price as the Pella tape. Any experience or preference for either of those? My initial thought would be that since the nailing fin is only 1-1/2 in. wide (or thereabouts), a 6 in. flashing tape is going to stick under the siding 4-5 in. which could make it more difficult to apply, whereas the 3 in. Pella tape would only extend 1-2 in. under the siding.
On more quick question: I presume that I should be installing flashing tape along the sill and up the sides of the rough opening prior to installing the window. Pella's instructions say to just apply SmartFlash directly to the rough opening, but I've seen others site-build or install a pre-built sloped sill to direct any water that happens to get between the window and RO towards the outside of the wall. Worth the cost/effort?

Pella tape is stickier in cold weather than ProtectoWrap is, so I would vote for that. I also like the 3 size for most window installations.
There are all sorts of fanatical ways to use window flashing tape... and without writing yet another long reply, suffice to say that no, I don't think it's worth the time and effort to go crazy with sloped sills, pan flashings, etc. under windows. Bottom line, if you have water getting in your RO's you have other problems that need to be addressed.
To answer your final question, no, the flashing tape is not installed around the RO prior to installing the window. The only thing that is often recommended is to install some flashing around the BOTTOM of the rough opening prior to installing the window. Even this is pretty pointless unless you provide sloped drainage, so...... (see the paragraph above) Your flashing tape is supposed to air seal the nailing fin, and incorporate the window into the WRB. How you do that is pretty straight forward. I generally will put the window in, then apply the flashing tape last, over the nailing fin. I feel this does the best job of sealing the corners of the windows, and with Pella windows, the corners are one of the most susceptible places where leakage can occur.
I don't usually follow Pella's flashing instructions to a T, to be frank.

Alright, sloped drainage not worth the time/effort; got it.
When I mentioned installing flashing tape in the RO prior to installing the window, I was referring to the method described in Pella's instructions, where tape is installed along the bottom of the RO and about 6 up either side (on the inner surfaces of the RO, *not* on the exterior surface of the wall) -- this sounds like what you're referring to. But your point about it being fairly pointless without providing sloped drainage is well received.
I'm feeling pretty good about doing the actual window install at this point -- my biggest anxiety is just that once I fire up the angle grinder and start cutting siding, there's no turning back. If we run into something unexpected, I'm stuck with a 4'x5' hole in my siding/insulation/sheathing that can't be repaired to match. But I've measured the window and RO over and over again to make sure I've sized the RO correctly, and your advice on how best to use the flashing tape makes me feel good about getting a nice weatherproof seal so there are no leaks. Installing blocking, frame expander trim, and J-channel should be pretty straightforward.
I can't thank you enough for answering all of my questions! Hopefully I can remember to snap a couple photos as we work, and definitely of the finished product.

Sounds good. A piece of plywood is a good backup plan in case you need to board the window back up for some unknown reason.
After you put the window in, be sure to apply the tape nice and straight, and as tight to the window as you can. The corners of a Pella window are the biggest leak potential because the factory foam corners they put on there are garbage.

Should the flashing tape that goes on over the nailing fin have a lengthwise fold in it, so that it is affixed to both the outer face of the window frame and the nailing fin (like drywall taping an inside corner)? Or should it be flat, only on the top of the nailing fin, with the very inside edge of the tape butted tightly into the corner between the fin and window frame?
Also, drip cap. I think from your previous posts it sounds like I should install one between the frame expander/receptor/trim and the J-channel along the top of the window, correct? Should I expect to find building paper or some other barrier between the siding and foam sheathing? If I do, does the top edge of the drip cap go between the siding and paper, or between paper and foam sheathing? If between paper and sheathing, I suppose that means that the bottom layer of flashing tape I apply before the window goes in should also go between any building paper and the sheathing, rather than on top of the building paper? Finally, it's OK if I don't apply flashing tape overtop of the top edge of the drip cap, correct? It would be pretty difficult to do so, given that it will be completely underneath the siding above the window.

Flashing tape flat on the nail fin. No need to fold onto the window. Not sure if you will find housewrap or not. If you do, it's usually easiest (but not best) for the drip cap (z-flashing) to go on top of the paper. You can also slit the paper and insert the top edge of the drip cap behind the paper.


Tags: adding, window, existing, wall, aluminum, siding, rough opening, trim coil, behind siding, flashing tape, flashing tape